I post this for several reasons. One, this is the type of conversation I have over the internet. Those who know me can compare to my conversational abilities in real life. Two, I kinda like this conversation, especially my bit near the end there. I'll put a summation of my and Winter's ideas up later for those of you who don't want to read a massive block of text.
9:44 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: I'm reasonably certain one of the reasons the cause has less support than it could in certain groups is because the acronym looks silly.
9:44 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well, i dunno about that
9:44 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: for instance, definite policy positions can be taken
9:44 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: without being taken for a specific group of people that has to be defined
9:44 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: It certainly made me chuckle on campus, and it was kind of a block at taking the advocacy part seriously.
9:44 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (and it's probably better if you do things that way)
9:45 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Fair enough...
9:45 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: for instance, removing the gendered restriction on mariage9
:46 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: you don't have to say who, exactly, you want to allow to marry
9:46 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: and list every gender identification
9:46 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Wouldn't it be easier to just give some other group responsibility for marriage licenses?
9:46 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: other than the government?
9:46 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: or other than churches?
9:46 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Other than either.
9:46 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: I mean, "government" is subdividable.
9:47 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well, churches don't need to be involved
9:47 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: but it's already legal to get married in a church if you want, to anyone you care to
9:47 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Unless the couple wants it to be.
9:47 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Sure.
9:47 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (and in fact it would be unconstitutional for it to be otherwise)
9:47 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Something like that, but in some other institution.
9:47 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: and the government only needs to be involved insofar as it grants special privileges to married couples
9:47 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: and denies certain couples the ability to marry
9:47 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: The government's only involved because of the theoretical wards of the state/future taxpayers.
9:47 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (given the equal protection clause)
9:48 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well, i wouldn't say only
9:48 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: i.e., the kids.
9:48 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: for instance, there could be some theoretical social benefit to marriage
9:48 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: You sure?
9:48 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: like increased happiness of couples
9:48 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: You sure?
9:48 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: I don't see it...
9:49 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well, sociological studies pretty much confirm that married couples are happier than unmarried couples
9:49 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Not from what I've seen.
9:49 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: The fact that 50% get divorced pretty much clinches that.
9:50 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: And regarding the "gender identification" bit...
9:50 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: replace the checkboxes with a blank line and you're all set!
9:50 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Easy!
9:50 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: yeah, there's no reason to specify genders at all
9:51 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (in fact, doing so is pretty much unconstitutional)
9:51 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: It's a waste of ink, anyway.
9:51 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (unless you really can list every single identity)
9:51 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (which, as we've established, is a PROBLEM)
9:51 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Two lines of text + boxes vs. one line?
9:52 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Well, I say, if 50% of marriages go busto, there's not much "increase in happiness" there.
9:52 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: i really need to organize my links and such
9:53 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Government has no reason to issue marriage licenses to keep track of people living together who can't produce "little taxpayers"...
9:53 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: And nothing's stopping gay/bisexual/lesbian/whatever couples from getting their licenses elsewhere...
9:53 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: ...or just flat-out moving in with each other straight off.
9:54 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: There's no reason for all the fire and flame and crap over the issue to even exist.
9:54 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: except there are substantial government benefits to be had
9:54 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: ie, visitation rights
9:54 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: as long as those exist
9:54 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: the need for legal marriage equality (federal AND state) is not going away
9:55 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Then wouldn't it be simplest to redefine marriage to not necessarily include those benefits.
9:55 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: ?
9:56 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: not necessarily
9:56 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: for instance, without legal recognition of the marriage relationship
9:56 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: your parents can deny your partner visitation rights, legally
9:56 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (as already happens to same sex couples)
9:57 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: I think we're operating on different definitons of "marriage". Here's someone that's states my definition pretty well...
9:57 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: "In the absence of the institution of marriage, the individuals could arrange their relationship whatever way they wanted to, making it temporary or permanent, and sharing their worldly belongings in whatever way they chose.
Marriage means that the government steps in, limiting or even prescribing various aspects of their relations with each other -- and still more their relationship with whatever children may result from their union.
In other words, marriage imposes legal restrictions, taking away rights that individuals might otherwise have."
10:00 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Hence, "And nothing's stopping gay/bisexual/lesbian/whatever couples from getting their licenses elsewhere... ...or just flat-out moving in with each other straight off."
10:00 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well, if it's still government-recognized
10:01 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: why is there a need for some additional party to enter into it/
10:01 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: ?
10:01 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: If by additional party you mean "the government", in theory there isn't.
10:01 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well, in your system there's the government, the couples, and a third party "marriage license" issuer
10:02 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: In my system the government has better things to worry about.
10:02 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: no, because there's still a legal definition of a relationship
10:02 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: just because the government doesn't hand out the paper, as long as it is recognized
10:02 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: it is still involved
10:02 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: if it is NOT recognized, then as we have established there are going to be problems with existing recognized relationships
10:03 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Wait, what? The government "handing out the paper" is a BAD thing; it curtails options for couples that they might otherwise have.
10:03 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: howso?
10:04 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Alimony payments, child support laws...
10:04 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: hm?
10:04 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: "In a free society, vast numbers of things are neither forbidden nor facilitated. They are considered to be none of the law's business.
Homosexuals were on their strongest ground when they said that the law had no business interfering with relations between consenting adults."
10:04 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: You could argue that I am currently in a (friendly, online) relationship with you.
10:05 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: that's not enough, though
10:05 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: If I had to sign some legal document to make that relationship "official", I'd have to provide support, etc.
10:05 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: if you want to have a relationship without government sanction that's totally fine
10:05 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: but that's not what we're talking about
10:06 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: we're talking, SPECIFICALLY, about the things the government is concerned with
10:06 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: for instance, how to legally recognize relationships between people
10:06 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: And I'm arguing the federal and state governments have minimal to no reason to do that.
10:06 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: County and city courts may see it differently...
10:07 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: but there's no apparent reason the Feds should have to concern themselves with marriage licenses.
10:10 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: as long as there is, just to come back to this again, legal recognition for familial relationships there will have to be legal recognition for marriage relationships of some kind, somewhere in law
10:10 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: even if it isn't providing tax breaks, or whatever
10:10 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Then put that law in city and county books.
10:11 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: If the guys in one county don't like it, move over.
10:11 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Because, honestly, show me in the Federal and State constitution where it says "The Country/State has the right to issue official recognitions of relationships".
10:11 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: There isn't one.
10:11 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: It doesn't belong there.
10:12 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: so how do you, then, recognize parents and children?
10:12 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: for instance, custody?
10:12 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: clearly parents have more claim to a child than some other unrelated person
10:12 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (at least in our society)
10:12 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: True.
10:12 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: if it's purely contractual
10:13 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: then any sort of contract will do
10:13 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: whereas the relationship is clearly not only contractual
10:13 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: For the purposes of the law, the contract is the only part that matters in any way to them.
10:13 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: to it, rather.
10:13 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: All else occurs elsewhere.
10:14 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: so, for instance, how do you create this contract?
10:14 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: clearly it cannot be between the parents and the child
10:14 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: because a child cannot give informed consent
10:14 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: which is a pretty big point of having this special relationship
10:15 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Well, how is it handled now?
10:15 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Presumably there's a contract of some sort between parents...
10:15 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: And if there's a break-up, the local courts handle the custody case.
10:16 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Just move the contract issues down a few pegs; move them away from state and federal governments with better things to do.
10:16 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: what if you move from one county to another?
10:16 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: can a police officer pick you up and take your child since your relationship is legally not recognized in that county or state?
10:16 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (this, too, happens currently)
10:16 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: ...in theory, no...
10:17 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Some section of the constitution says that...
10:17 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Can't remember where, though, hold on...
10:17 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: it's reciprocity
10:17 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: but the constitution is federal government, again
10:18 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: 1. Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state.
10:18 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: yeah
10:18 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Okay, that's for states, but the same rule applies.
10:18 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: And I'm assuming "records" includes marriage licenses.
10:19 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: it does
10:19 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: although generally same sex marriages aren't being counted
10:19 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: at the moment
10:19 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: under a variety of scummy legal tricks
10:20 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Hey, look, I don't like Prop. 8 either, alright?
10:20 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: You don't put marriage laws in a state constitution, it's stupid!
10:20 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: it's not just that
10:20 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: for instance, the mass. law specifically says "we don't do reciprocity on THESE marriages"
10:21 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: or something like that, it's been a while
10:21 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: and even if it did
10:21 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: alabama doesn't care
10:25 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: ...seems the whole damn problem here is all the extra detritus attached to a marriage license.
10:25 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well if it weren't for all this extra stuff there wouldn't be any need for government recognition to begin with
10:26 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well, no, i suppose just offering a blank recognition would still probably invoke equal protection
10:26 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: but it wouldn't be a big deal
10:26 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: just get married in a church, or whatever1
0:27 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: If the recognitions were "blank"--if marriage licenses didn't come with the whole "visitation rights" and whatever--this problem would be so much easier to solve.
10:27 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: But not even the staunchest Christian anti-gay-marriage advocate doesn't consider "visitation rights" part and parcel of the marriage thing. At least he doesn't say so.
10:28 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: So couldn't we just redefine marriage to a legal contract, without any implicit visitation rights or tax breaks or whatever?
10:28 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: It wouldn't matter to me, anyway; I'm a bachelor for life.
10:29 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well... what do you mean?
10:30 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: You said, way back when...
10:31 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: that implicit in the marriage license are various benefits, " ie, visitation rights", which is where all the problems of "defining marriage" comes up.
10:31 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: No marriage definition I've seen, even those made by those who are AGAINST gay marriage, include those various benefits.
10:31 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: i'm not sure that's really true
10:31 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: but opponents of same sex marriage don't really have a coherent position anyway
10:31 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: by that logic
10:32 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: they're not actually against any specific policy, they're just complaining about things that aren't happening
10:32 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Sucks to be them, then, but all the same...
10:33 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well if people would stop paying attention to them we wouldn't be having this conversation
10:33 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: there's a bunch of extra stuff attached to the legal definition of "marriage" that nobody but the government considers part of the definition.
10:33 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: At least, nobody but federal and state governments.
10:33 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well, i wouldn't say that
10:33 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: the same sex marriage fans are (or probably should be) primarily interested in those pieces
10:34 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Really?
10:34 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (or perhaps more accurately: equal protection, which involves those areas in which people are not receiving equal protection, which encompasses those issues)
10:34 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: those who got a marriage license are also, i think, pretty interested
10:34 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: even if only for the tax breaks
10:35 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: If they're interested all the benefits but not necessarily the word...
10:35 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: ...would "civil unions" with all the benefits of marriage but not necessarily the name satisfy them?
10:35 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: I was under the impression they wanted the legally binding contract...
10:35 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: ...not all the extra crap.
10:36 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well, "civil unions" would also be a legally binding contract
10:36 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: "civil unions" are also... uh... problematic
10:36 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: there is some pretty serious precedent in that area that is really, really awkward to ignore
10:36 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: (specifically: "separate but equal")
10:37 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Sigh...
10:37 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: more generally speaking
10:38 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: you're creating a new, distinct relationship that is supposed to be the exact same thing, effectively, as marriage excepting for who can get into the relationship
10:38 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Well, barring a legal redefinition of "marriage license"...
10:39 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: I'm fine with the whole "gay people in love want to be together" thing, but why they choose to define that under a RESTRICTION of relationships is problematic.
10:40 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: restriction?
10:40 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Marriage. The concept implies certain restrictions on how the couple goes about settling its relationships.
10:41 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: well, in a sense
10:42 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Dowrys, home-providing, how to split the inheritances, whatever.
10:42 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: yeah
10:42 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: but isn't that sort of the business of the people who enter into the relationship?
10:42 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Under normal circumstances, it would be.
10:43 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: The institution of "marriage" puts restrictions on that for the benefit of the tribe, future taxpayers, whatever.
10:44 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Some legal systems, for instance, require the spouses to pool and joinly own their properties...
10:44 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: yeah
10:44 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: ...others give them 50-50 liabilities for debts.
10:45 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Subtract the institution, and the couple could split their debts and assets however they wanted.
10:46 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: yeah
10:47 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: To repeat, I'm fine with the idea of "gay marriage", I'm just wondering why the gay couple is so happy about it, since it adds extra restrictions to how they go about their lives.
10:48 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: But again, it really doesn't matter to me, since I'll be a bachelor forever.
10:48 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: heh
10:50 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Well, that was an enlightening discussion!
10:51 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: hehe
10:51 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: I've actually codified one of my political beliefs into something that I'd be willing to put on a website or poster.
10:52 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: yay
10:52 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister] giggles
10:52 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Yay indeed!
10:52 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri offers a toast.
10:52 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: whee
10:52 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: To future enlightening discussions!
10:53 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: hehe
10:54 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: Who would've guessed you'd have spent a half-hour plus discussing gay relations and relationship legality with someone you met over TF2?
10:54 PM - Winter [PM of Sinister]: :P
10:55 PM - [d20/ChHa] Davin Valkri: An hour plus, actually.
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